Why is baggage that bad? I mean, unless you can literally place yourself in the shoes of, let’s say….the multitude on the mount, then you are going to bring your own perspective to the story.

Perspective is one thing, I would argue that multiple perspectives is vital to understanding.

It’s the ellipses (…) that become problematic. By cutting out a key part of what Jesus was saying (or adding text for that matter) you are now re-writing scripture to fit your agenda. In your qutoation above you said:

I tell you, no!…Or those instead of:
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those
Why would you leave that out?

Now punctuation… you could argue there since there was no punctuation in the original text. So:

Jesus wept.
Jesus wept…
Jesus wept?
Jesus wept?!?
Jesus wept!!

All valid ways to read it, none of them contradict and together they paint a picture. But of course it would be kind of silly to read that phrase alone. You need the entire context of John 11 to even know why He wept. Then some of those punctuations might not make any sense.

Cut and paste theology can be dangerous.

OK, there are any number of problems here. Firstly, you are approaching this with a temporal presupposition. If one is to hold to God’s eternality then he created everything while – at the very least – knowing what will come to pass. If you’re going to chose to abandon this then you have a problem with prophet-downtown-mumbler, not that he is able to prophecy that one particular thing will come to pass, but that all previous things will come to pass so that the one particular thing will come to pass. There is complete certainty that God is in control of minutia in these circumstances, so to take the absence of evidence of Providence in matters such as the bridge collapse or the Tsunami is to presume that God is either unaware or unable.

We cannot declare why things have come to pass, (if we are going theorize about why then we need to be putting it on ourselves) but to say that God is separate from it is to say that suffering has no foreknown, intended purpose, only the god of slow reflexes trying to make the best of that big mess that happened while he had his feet up watching the Steelers having an Iron City.

“Everyone brings baggage to the text. You, me, Jason – everyone”

This only avoids the fact that the narrative – that is, how things happened – has an obvious theological lean. There comes a point at which the words need to mean something. I mean, I understood everything you said…but I have all this baggage! How could I comprehend you at all? heh

“That’s how I read it”

Another life changing moment of biblical exposition. You can get the whole set for 39.95.

Where do you get that from in the text?

Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no!…Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no!”

That’s how I read it.

Who are we to say he’s wrong..?

Because Pat has, at other times, made predictions based upon what he says God has told him and he has been…incorrect. I don’t think he’s lying, I think he believes it. But so have other, perhaps more questionable, “prophets”.

I’m not saying that God had nothing to do with these things. We just don’t know how much.

Exactly my point. We don’t know. There’s not any information on that point… so… there is some other point that Jesus is trying to get across. I think Jason nails it here. When one (not meaning you in particular) reads the passage without baggage, preconceived ideas or an agenda.. just clearly.. Jesus is basically saying “You are all sinners and you need to repent. God (the vineyard owner) has given you (all of us… the fig tree) fair chance to get straight and time is just about up. I (Jesus, the groundskeeper) have intervened on your behalf to give you more time, but that time is short.

Getting back to the original topic, that’s how many people approach these “Terror Texts”… either with an agenda to prove something about God or they dismiss the texts because what it might say doesn’t jibe with their preconceived ideas about God. My thing is that I believe God speaks to us through every bit of His word; sometimes we don’t get it because we are looking for something else, or not looking at all….

C said: “Look you are no better than those people. That’s not why they died.”

Where do you get that from in the text?

No, scratch that, I think that we need not say things like that at all.

I would agree with that unless God specifically tells you that He did those things and He wants you to tell others.

Pat actually has said that God has talked to him. Who are we to say he’s wrong..?.. just because what he said makes us squirm…?.. I wonder how many people squirmed when Isaiah spoke…?

The atheist line sort of goes like; “If God’s omnipotent and he allows evil well then he must have created evil and thereby in some way must be evil”. So…I think we need to be careful before we start saying things like God sent the tidal wave, or the hurricane or the planes. No, scratch that, I think that we need not say things like that at all.

Yeah, I think prophets exist. But who really knows which ones they are, eh? Might be that guy walking around downtown, naked as a jaybird with the dog poop on his head. Might even be Jerry and Pat. Gosh. My money’s on the guy downtown.

ummm

“Luke 13:4-5 do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? 5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”

Is there any way to take the tone of this other than those in Jerusalem are just as bad, and so are you, and I, and we will *likewise* perish? That Christ applies the fate of those in Siloam to all, in that, they either repent or are punished for being “offenders” is all I can see that is inferred.

However, like I said, the immediately previous pericope is one in which people are being dragged before a judge for an offense for which they will have to pay back every penny. Jesus is not talking about debtors prison here, he is talking about what he came for (12:51)…so who is the judge and executor of the sentence in this metaphor?

Then immediately afterward, the parable of the fig tree. Who is the vinedresser, who is the owner, and who is the fig tree in this parable.

The passages which sandwich the passage in question should leave no doubt that indeed God does it and we deserve it, that we are all likewise offenders and unless we repent will meet a similar fate.

“the ones the atheists often use to paint God as some sort of immature tyrant”

so?

PART of what I think we can infer from that passage in Luke was that Jesus was telling the folks that the Galileans who suffered under Pilate and those who died in the tower accident did not do so because they were being punished for wickedness.

I’m not saying that God had nothing to do with these things. We just don’t know how much. Of course we can get into that argument that if allowed to happen that is the same as him causing it to happen, the ones the atheists often use to paint God as some sort of immature tyrant. But Pilate was bad, the terrorists were bad, the guy who skimped on the good mortar for the tower was bad – heck, we’re all bad to some degree. We do things that often result in catastrophe and heart ache. And we better start getting our acts together because the clock is ticking.

I really appreciate what you have been laying down.

They claim to have God’s ear

Can you say with 100% certainty that they don’t? Do true prophets no longer exists?

But who forced Falwell to apologize?

Forced…? ok, but heavy pressure was put on him, even from the White House.

What’s your evidence that God had nothing to do with the collapse of the Siloam tower? I don’t see proof one way or the other about that. You seem to be reading more into the text than is actually there.

Jason! Wass up dude?

“Or perhaps God had as little to do with these thing as he did with the collapsing tower at Shiloam.”

Now, how in the heck do you figure this considering the context?

It must come from this presumption, “Innocents killed because others are not innocent?” but this presumption is completely incongruent with the passage about the tower at Siloam.

Your later statement is contextually unsound all by itself, but put together with the other quote, your idea is completely biblically incoherent.

Or perhaps God had as little to do with these thing as he did with the collapsing tower at Shiloam.

But who forced Falwell to apologize?

Here’s a transcript of the exchange between Falwell and Robertson that I was referring to:

Transcript

This is post-attack, so it wasn’t an invocation, he was claiming that a particular act (9/11) was due to God pulling away His ‘curtain of protection’ as a result of America turning away from Him.

So, Falwell was roundly chastised and force to publicly apologize for his remarks. Now quite honestly I can’t say that he was wrong… (gasp!)… I can’t say that he was right either. I haven’t been endowed with the gift of prophesy or given visions to be able to clearly discern Gods intentions. Was it a ‘nice’ thing to blame people for that terror? Of course not, but I wonder how many friends Isaiah, Jeremiah, Jonah, Micah, et al had… I wonder if they were publicly chastised for some of the stuff they said…

Am I claiming Falwell was right for what he said or that he’s a prophet? no… but is it possible that he could have been right? Does God purge evil anymore??

I like what you said, Chris, that he does so in lots of ways that aren’t so dramatic. But does that mean He never is dramatic?