Comments on: Subduing the Earth http://rev22.org/index.php/2008/07/subduing-the-earth/ ... Whoever is thirsty, let him come .... Fri, 23 Jul 2010 12:43:14 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Christian Beyer http://rev22.org/index.php/2008/07/subduing-the-earth/comment-page-1/#comment-8619 Christian Beyer Wed, 16 Jul 2008 19:07:17 +0000 http://rev22.org/?p=143#comment-8619 Me? What? <em>Christian Beyers last blog post..<a href="http://sharpiron.wordpress.com/2008/07/15/silent-choices/" rel="nofollow">Silent Choices</a></em> Me? What?

Christian Beyers last blog post..Silent Choices

]]> By: badguy http://rev22.org/index.php/2008/07/subduing-the-earth/comment-page-1/#comment-8616 badguy Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:37:24 +0000 http://rev22.org/?p=143#comment-8616 So, Christian...have you invited BuddyO to one of our ECB gatherings? It's your turn to host methinks... <em>badguys last blog post..<a href="http://b4dguy.wordpress.com/2008/07/11/featured-artist-maron-gaffron/" rel="nofollow">Featured Artist: Maron Gaffron</a></em> So, Christian…have you invited BuddyO to one of our ECB gatherings? It’s your turn to host methinks…

badguys last blog post..Featured Artist: Maron Gaffron

]]> By: Christian Beyer http://rev22.org/index.php/2008/07/subduing-the-earth/comment-page-1/#comment-8571 Christian Beyer Fri, 11 Jul 2008 20:10:11 +0000 http://rev22.org/?p=143#comment-8571 Yeah. Redemption does work a lot better. Yeah. Redemption does work a lot better.

]]> By: BuddyO http://rev22.org/index.php/2008/07/subduing-the-earth/comment-page-1/#comment-8570 BuddyO Fri, 11 Jul 2008 19:51:21 +0000 http://rev22.org/?p=143#comment-8570 I actually prefer the term 'redemption', but 'salvation' is pretty cool too. I actually prefer the term ‘redemption’, but ’salvation’ is pretty cool too.

]]> By: Christian http://rev22.org/index.php/2008/07/subduing-the-earth/comment-page-1/#comment-8564 Christian Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:14:40 +0000 http://rev22.org/?p=143#comment-8564 Right. And one aspect of that is how God has inextricably tied the personal salvation of every Jew with the salvation of the Jews as a whole. God does not intend for his people to live apart from one another, no one is to see his own salvation apart from the salvation of the overarching community (and at times, aliens to that community).I think this understanding is often missing in the Church - it's not all about personal salvation. Right. And one aspect of that is how God has inextricably tied the personal salvation of every Jew with the salvation of the Jews as a whole. God does not intend for his people to live apart from one another, no one is to see his own salvation apart from the salvation of the overarching community (and at times, aliens to that community).I think this understanding is often missing in the Church – it’s not all about personal salvation.

]]> By: BuddyO http://rev22.org/index.php/2008/07/subduing-the-earth/comment-page-1/#comment-8563 BuddyO Fri, 11 Jul 2008 12:26:27 +0000 http://rev22.org/?p=143#comment-8563 I think it's hard to relate because people read it with a lot of modern baggage. Trying to enumerate the different laws and get offended and confused by them but if you pull back and disconnect from the minutae of the individual laws you see a fuller picture of the message. I think it’s hard to relate because people read it with a lot of modern baggage. Trying to enumerate the different laws and get offended and confused by them but if you pull back and disconnect from the minutae of the individual laws you see a fuller picture of the message.

]]> By: Christian http://rev22.org/index.php/2008/07/subduing-the-earth/comment-page-1/#comment-8554 Christian Thu, 10 Jul 2008 19:22:24 +0000 http://rev22.org/?p=143#comment-8554 Well, Jesus may have found it important that in addition to being the messiah (but not as far as anyone knew at the time) he was a rabbi. It's kind of tough to relate all of Leviticus and Deuteronomy to people who aren't Jewish and no longer hold to the Jewish traditions or holidays. This is probably a natural result of the early Church's de-Jewification of Yeshua. It's interesting that the Christians who seem to identify the most with the Old Testament Jews are the African-Americans. <em>Christians last blog post..<a href="http://sharpiron.wordpress.com/2008/07/09/written-on-the-heart-some-thoughts-on-the-law/" rel="nofollow">Written on the Heart: Some Thoughts on the Law</a></em> Well, Jesus may have found it important that in addition to being the messiah (but not as far as anyone knew at the time) he was a rabbi. It’s kind of tough to relate all of Leviticus and Deuteronomy to people who aren’t Jewish and no longer hold to the Jewish traditions or holidays. This is probably a natural result of the early Church’s de-Jewification of Yeshua.

It’s interesting that the Christians who seem to identify the most with the Old Testament Jews are the African-Americans.

Christians last blog post..Written on the Heart: Some Thoughts on the Law

]]> By: BuddyO http://rev22.org/index.php/2008/07/subduing-the-earth/comment-page-1/#comment-8550 BuddyO Thu, 10 Jul 2008 16:01:43 +0000 http://rev22.org/?p=143#comment-8550 Cool, if that's what you're going with, more power to ya. A couple of quick things: I actually really like McClaren. I'm looking forward to reading his new book. I just read a cool interview with him at JesusManifesto I enjoyed. <blockquote>And I never said ‘the law that sums up the laws is contained within the laws”- you own that line and it is a conundrum</blockquote> No, I wasn't attributing that to you, it's all me... but it's true... the very 'law' that Jesus supposedly used to supercede all other laws is actually contained smack in the middle of the laws He was supposedly superceding... Lev 19 is the chapter most ripped out and discarded from peoples Bibles... kind of ironic that Jesus thought it was so important but so many folks write it off as agenda driven 'poetic license'... Cool, if that’s what you’re going with, more power to ya.

A couple of quick things:

I actually really like McClaren. I’m looking forward to reading his new book. I just read a cool interview with him at JesusManifesto I enjoyed.

And I never said ‘the law that sums up the laws is contained within the laws”- you own that line and it is a conundrum

No, I wasn’t attributing that to you, it’s all me… but it’s true… the very ‘law’ that Jesus supposedly used to supercede all other laws is actually contained smack in the middle of the laws He was supposedly superceding… Lev 19Open Link in New Window is the chapter most ripped out and discarded from peoples Bibles… kind of ironic that Jesus thought it was so important but so many folks write it off as agenda driven ‘poetic license’…

]]> By: Christian http://rev22.org/index.php/2008/07/subduing-the-earth/comment-page-1/#comment-8545 Christian Thu, 10 Jul 2008 03:20:09 +0000 http://rev22.org/?p=143#comment-8545 No, Kemosabe, that was my point. You can't define it or quantify it or grade it. So how do you aspire to it? Perhaps concentrating on some type of code of personal behavior(like the "fundie legalists" do - they're really not mean, they only seem that way) is a case of missing the forest for the trees. And I think you are fixated on McLaren. <i>"the only way you can justify what you do not understand is to blame it on the messed up humans…"</i> You mean like the "God sanctioned" genocide? I understand it perfectly well; the Israelites just stamped God's seal of approval on some things they did that weren't too 'holy' - just as many continue to do. Then again maybe its just better to justify inconsistencies in the Bible by saying "Well, it's a mystery". But then what point is God trying to make here? Or should we just set these uncomfortable things aside until we can ask him face to face? And I never said 'the law that sums up the laws is contained within the laws"- you own that line and it is a conundrum. What I said was that this one 'law' is found in the OT and the NT. The various 'laws' are poor attempts to get people to hold to the one law. It doesn't work - Jesus shows us a way that does. You know that this whole inerrant and infallible Bible thing has only been Protestant doctrine for the last 150 years or so. It's not a particularly 'biblical' idea itself. <em>Christians last blog post..<a href="http://sharpiron.wordpress.com/2008/07/09/written-on-the-heart-some-thoughts-on-the-law/" rel="nofollow">Written on the Heart: Some Thoughts on the Law</a></em> No, Kemosabe, that was my point. You can’t define it or quantify it or grade it. So how do you aspire to it? Perhaps concentrating on some type of code of personal behavior(like the “fundie legalists” do – they’re really not mean, they only seem that way) is a case of missing the forest for the trees. And I think you are fixated on McLaren.

“the only way you can justify what you do not understand is to blame it on the messed up humans…”

You mean like the “God sanctioned” genocide? I understand it perfectly well; the Israelites just stamped God’s seal of approval on some things they did that weren’t too ‘holy’ – just as many continue to do. Then again maybe its just better to justify inconsistencies in the Bible by saying “Well, it’s a mystery”. But then what point is God trying to make here? Or should we just set these uncomfortable things aside until we can ask him face to face?

And I never said ‘the law that sums up the laws is contained within the laws”- you own that line and it is a conundrum. What I said was that this one ‘law’ is found in the OT and the NT. The various ‘laws’ are poor attempts to get people to hold to the one law. It doesn’t work – Jesus shows us a way that does.

You know that this whole inerrant and infallible Bible thing has only been Protestant doctrine for the last 150 years or so. It’s not a particularly ‘biblical’ idea itself.

Christians last blog post..Written on the Heart: Some Thoughts on the Law

]]> By: BuddyO http://rev22.org/index.php/2008/07/subduing-the-earth/comment-page-1/#comment-8542 BuddyO Wed, 09 Jul 2008 21:55:24 +0000 http://rev22.org/?p=143#comment-8542 Re Leviticus... it seems as if you look at Leviticus in a very similar way that those mean old Fundie Leagalists do... you just come to a different conclusion... the only way you can justify what you do not understand is to blame it on the messed up humans... You both miss the forest for the trees... What is Holy? God is Holy... he spends 66 books and the entirety of Creation describing what that means. Did you really ask me to define, quantify and grade?? Brian McC would be horrified at your modernity.... The law that sums up the laws is contained within the laws... quite a circular conundrum... Re Leviticus… it seems as if you look at Leviticus in a very similar way that those mean old Fundie Leagalists do… you just come to a different conclusion… the only way you can justify what you do not understand is to blame it on the messed up humans…

You both miss the forest for the trees…

What is Holy? God is Holy… he spends 66 books and the entirety of Creation describing what that means. Did you really ask me to define, quantify and grade?? Brian McC would be horrified at your modernity….

The law that sums up the laws is contained within the laws… quite a circular conundrum…

]]> By: Christian http://rev22.org/index.php/2008/07/subduing-the-earth/comment-page-1/#comment-8541 Christian Wed, 09 Jul 2008 20:38:53 +0000 http://rev22.org/?p=143#comment-8541 What's holy? Not for God, but for us? Can you define it - quantify - grade it? Wouldn't the law that sums up all the laws be a prescription for holiness? What’s holy? Not for God, but for us? Can you define it – quantify – grade it? Wouldn’t the law that sums up all the laws be a prescription for holiness?

]]> By: Christian http://rev22.org/index.php/2008/07/subduing-the-earth/comment-page-1/#comment-8540 Christian Wed, 09 Jul 2008 20:36:56 +0000 http://rev22.org/?p=143#comment-8540 Hey, didn't you read my 'rebuke'? Steve does not believe that at all - he was accusing others (maybe me?) of believing that. You missed a comma or something. I don't think Leviticus et al is about salvation per se. The idea that you must love God as well as love others is the key to realizing salvation, I think that it is found throughout the OT and NT. Many (if not all, I can't really tell) of the numerous laws in those books (IMHO) are not put there to please God per se but to protect the semi-savage Israelites as well as to ensure that they would take care of their neighbors. The only true 'theocracy' with the Golden Rule as the only law. But....(here it comes) I think that the authors used a little poetic license, got into perhaps a bit of unnecessary detail in their description of God's prescriptions and proscriptions (I mean come on - all those sacrificial grocery lists? And then there's the genocide thing.) After all, this was more or less their Constitution. How else to avoid dissent but to attribute every law to the precise dictation of God? <em>Christians last blog post..<a href="http://sharpiron.wordpress.com/2008/07/09/written-on-the-heart-some-thoughts-on-the-law/" rel="nofollow">Written on the Heart; Some Thoughts on the Law</a></em> Hey, didn’t you read my ‘rebuke’? Steve does not believe that at all – he was accusing others (maybe me?) of believing that. You missed a comma or something.

I don’t think Leviticus et al is about salvation per se. The idea that you must love God as well as love others is the key to realizing salvation, I think that it is found throughout the OT and NT. Many (if not all, I can’t really tell) of the numerous laws in those books (IMHO) are not put there to please God per se but to protect the semi-savage Israelites as well as to ensure that they would take care of their neighbors. The only true ‘theocracy’ with the Golden Rule as the only law.

But….(here it comes) I think that the authors used a little poetic license, got into perhaps a bit of unnecessary detail in their description of God’s prescriptions and proscriptions (I mean come on – all those sacrificial grocery lists? And then there’s the genocide thing.) After all, this was more or less their Constitution. How else to avoid dissent but to attribute every law to the precise dictation of God?

Christians last blog post..Written on the Heart; Some Thoughts on the Law

]]> By: BuddyO http://rev22.org/index.php/2008/07/subduing-the-earth/comment-page-1/#comment-8538 BuddyO Wed, 09 Jul 2008 20:13:35 +0000 http://rev22.org/?p=143#comment-8538 <blockquote>Which is something we should consider when we Christians claim exclusive salvation.</blockquote> Well, not really. It takes the addition of quite a bit of baggage to turn Leviticus 19 and Deuteronomy 6 into a discussion on Salvation. I didn't say everything pointed to His love for us. I said everything has something to say about His nature and how it relates to us. Unlike your bud Steve at your place, I think Gods nature <i>includes</i> (is dominated by) love but is not limited to it. For example take Leviticus I <a href="http://rev22.org/index.php/archives/93" target=blank rel="nofollow">read</a> a real good article about that book that talks about it's relevance and how it gives insight to Gods nature... it tells us to “Be holy, because I am holy”... God is Holy and deserving of respect... that He doesn't just expect us to "Do as He says, not as He does"... He walks the walk, He IS Holy and wants us to strive to be the same... because He wants the best for us, He knows what Holiness can mean for us because He lives it. So, He gives His new people little baby steps to try to achieve that... a start toward Holiness.

Which is something we should consider when we Christians claim exclusive salvation.

Well, not really. It takes the addition of quite a bit of baggage to turn Leviticus 19Open Link in New Window and Deuteronomy 6Open Link in New Window into a discussion on Salvation.

I didn’t say everything pointed to His love for us. I said everything has something to say about His nature and how it relates to us. Unlike your bud Steve at your place, I think Gods nature includes (is dominated by) love but is not limited to it. For example take Leviticus I read a real good article about that book that talks about it’s relevance and how it gives insight to Gods nature… it tells us to “Be holy, because I am holy”… God is Holy and deserving of respect… that He doesn’t just expect us to “Do as He says, not as He does”… He walks the walk, He IS Holy and wants us to strive to be the same… because He wants the best for us, He knows what Holiness can mean for us because He lives it. So, He gives His new people little baby steps to try to achieve that… a start toward Holiness.

]]> By: Christian http://rev22.org/index.php/2008/07/subduing-the-earth/comment-page-1/#comment-8536 Christian Wed, 09 Jul 2008 18:58:35 +0000 http://rev22.org/?p=143#comment-8536 As per your last sentence,absolutely. Which is something we should consider when we Christians claim exclusive salvation. But I don't think I'm following you, Teacher. Perhaps you need to whack me on the head with a stick, like the Zen masters did. I don't think everything in Leviticus (or even everything in the Bible) points to his love for us. However I don't think anything in the Bible denies his love, either. <em>Christians last blog post..<a href="http://sharpiron.wordpress.com/2008/07/08/extreme-diction/" rel="nofollow">God Hates You</a></em> As per your last sentence,absolutely. Which is something we should consider when we Christians claim exclusive salvation.

But I don’t think I’m following you, Teacher. Perhaps you need to whack me on the head with a stick, like the Zen masters did. I don’t think everything in Leviticus (or even everything in the Bible) points to his love for us. However I don’t think anything in the Bible denies his love, either.

Christians last blog post..God Hates You

]]> By: BuddyO http://rev22.org/index.php/2008/07/subduing-the-earth/comment-page-1/#comment-8534 BuddyO Wed, 09 Jul 2008 17:32:10 +0000 http://rev22.org/?p=143#comment-8534 Sure, in terms of God controlling nature for our benefit etc... I guess I'm asking about His personal relationship with us as revealed through the Old Testament. His personal investment in us, His Grace, the many facets of His Love for us evidenced in each an every chapter of the OT... even Leviticus.... Remember that when Jesus gave His <a href="http://rev22.org/index.php/archives/97" target=blank rel="nofollow">Golden Rule</a> he was just quoting from the Pentateuch. Sure, in terms of God controlling nature for our benefit etc…

I guess I’m asking about His personal relationship with us as revealed through the Old Testament. His personal investment in us, His Grace, the many facets of His Love for us evidenced in each an every chapter of the OT… even Leviticus….

Remember that when Jesus gave His Golden Rule he was just quoting from the Pentateuch.

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