Who’s Poor?

BuddyO | Posted on January 8th, 2008 in Act of Kindness, Christianity, Emergent, Hunger, Love, Poverty, Wealth.

Ok, we’re talking about wealth how about poverty?

Most often in ‘Christian Circles’ poverty is defined subjectively. Peoples level of poverty is determined in relationship to the mean level of existence in the particular society in which they live. The American Heritage Dictionary defines it this way:

  1. The state of being poor; lack of the means of providing material needs or comforts.
  2. Deficiency in amount; scantiness

Pretty subjective… “lack of the means of providing material needs or comforts” – needs or comforts according to whose standards? “Deficiency in amount” again with reference to what?

Here’s some scenarios to think about:

A family might be considered poor if they can’t afford to buy their recently turned 16 year old a late model car for their birthday.

They are rich compared to the family who only has broadcast television and an old beat up first generation PS1. Whose kids wear hand-me-downs and stuff from the salvation army.

They are doing well according to a family that lives in a drafty run down abandon camper parked in vacant lot, have only the basic food to eat.. just what they can get from local food pantry that’s only open twice a month.

They are rich in the eyes of a family who scavenge from the local landfill for scraps of rotted food to bring back to their family who lives in a makeshift leantoo.

Who are better off than the family who must sell their daughter on the sex market to afford a cup of rice to last them through the week, who must eat it dry because they can’t afford to use what little water they have for cooking.

How about something different…?

How about the homeless guy named Bob that we met in Baltimore. He has both legs amputated and is probably 100 pounds over weight (definitely not malnourished). The tires on his motorized wheel chair are almost worn through.

Then there’s a guy elsewhere with the same amputated legs. He is thin and frail from lack of food except for his calloused elbows and somewhat muscular arms that he uses to drag himself along the rough rocky ground.

OK, enough, you get the point. I wonder if (at least in this country) we miss what Scripture call us to do when it talks about taking care of the poor, what Jesus refers to in Matthew 25:31-46Open Link in New Window. I’m confident everyone reading this blog has examples of things they do to help and take care of the poor. But perhaps taking care of the poor here locally is kind of taking the easy way out, just kind of skimming by with the bare minimum.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not advocating a discontinuation of the great work that is being done helping the homeless and underprivileged in America. Even if these (if you buy my thesis) might not qualify as helping the truly poor and needy, they certainly are acts of kindness and charity that the Lord smiles upon.

There are tribes in South America that by many world standards would be considered poor, yet they have plenty to eat from what they hunt and gather, they have shelter that they have made, and are quite happy and content.

There are those in this country who have more than those tribes, yet are considered poor and in need of help. What’s missing?

Who exactly is Scripture referring to when it talks about taking care of the poor? The hungry, the thirsty, those without shelter, the sick, the prisoner?

 

52 replies

  1. KathyONo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 8th, 2008 at 2:59 pm

    I think that the bible’s definition of “the poor”, to our dismay, is a very general one. It seems to include those without clothing to those without shelter and so on. It’s almost like the “love your neighbor issue”. Well, who is my neighbor? Can it just be the ones that I like and that smell good? No… Can the poor be those that qualify according to my definition. Like those that have fallen on hard times despite doing all that they could? No…The poor also include the ones that did things that we don’t approve of that then led them to the state of poverty they are now in. Like the homeless drug addict or the guy that gambles his life savings away and is now living on the street or anyone that has made really bad choices and is now experiencing the consequences of those choices. What I try to remember is that only but for the grace of God go I. It could easily be me. Sometimes it’s easier to see the image of poverty as those poor children with distended bellies and flies all over their faces. They are the innocent victims in this issue of poverty, they didn’t do anything to cause it.

    I also understand that it is important to help those outside of this country but I think that it becomes too easy to do that. We have two children that we support through World Vision. I do nothing but log in the amount every month that gets sent. Does it help? Yes, of course. Hopefully, it will promote the “pass it forward” mentality and those children will grow up to help others in their own way one day. Should I be doing more? Probably. We should at least be corresponding with them and we don’t. That is what, I believe, to be the downside of helping outside of the country. It tends to put it in a neat and tidy box where we don’t really have to extend ourselves. It almost keeps it somewhat sterile, if that makes sense. (Of course this does not include mission trips where you are one on one with those you are helping). How about stopping to talk with someone or even something as little as smiling and saying hello. Of course, this is not going to fix their problem but just maybe it will allow them to also see themselves as an actual person.

    Of course, we also need to be doing tangible things like donating food and money to the local food bank. Participation in a coat drive. Sometimes I think we get so caught up in what it means, exactly, to help the poor that we lose sight of what we are meant to do. To me that means, you see a need and you respond to it. Big or little, whatever you can do to meet that need.

  2. tamNo Gravatar says:

    Added on January 8th, 2008 at 4:45 pm

    In 2 Cor 8Open Link in New Window it talks about Jesus becoming “poor” for our sake. I realize we’re talking about poverty, to a point, here. But when I think of poor, I tend to think of poor in spirit. Jesus became poor by becoming one of us. What does that say about us? And how does that define poor? I know of, and have heard of, many people that would be considered “poor” by materialistic standards but would NEVER consider themselves poor. They’ve had a much better grasp on the richness of His Spirit and presence than most “rich” do. They are not bound to having to have the next best thing to stay content – they have God – that’s all they need.

    I understand there are truly people in poverty…children, here and abroad, born into it without choice and I am so thankful for the monetary help that is offered to provide at least a small bit – and that is something completely different than where my mind tends to settle on this topic.

    I tend to go off topic and feel I never quite get the intent of the bloggers direction – I just share the first thing that comes to mind.

    Kathy, I agree! If not for Grace it could be any one of us! I think about that often. Although in many cases His grace is ignored and replaced by our “poor” choices. That brings to mind a whole other line of questioning for me then. Why me? Why be born here in the richest country? Has He not shown others grace? Makes my head spin…

  3. Christian BeyerNo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 8th, 2008 at 5:04 pm

    I agree with all three of you so far. But I don’t take the parable of the sheep and the goats (one of my favorite scriptures) to just be a command to help the poor. I think it’s more about hospitality. He talks of those in need – any one of the conditions that he mentions could apply to any and all of us at any time irrespective of our ‘wealth’. And I don’t think he wants us to help others just because it is good for them or because he commands it – it is good for us, even essential for any type of healthy spirituality.

    So like Kathy said, even though sending in checks to charities is a very good thing and obviously is needed in this day and age it’t not the same thing as perhaps taking in someone who is temporarily homeless but maybe not so very ‘deserving’, like a huband who has been kicked out of his house for cheating on his wife – or visiting someone who is dying because they contracted diseases from dirty needle sharing – or trying to find out what it is that is hurting the bully at work or school -or any one of a number of sad and needy examples. (Like offering to rake Mr. Potter’s leaves – no strings attached ;) )

  4. JasonNo Gravatar says:

    Added on January 8th, 2008 at 8:17 pm

    All I do is peepee on parades.

    Matthew 25:31-46Open Link in New Window doesn’t have any commands apart from Jesus saying “come”. And the blessing is not at all the clear result of the action of philanthropy of any sort, the blessing could just as easily be the cause of giving as the result.

    And if one tries to harmonize it with other passages throughout the NT, the idea that these acts are the cause of the effect of being separated at the final judgment (yes, it is, C) becomes impossible to sustain.

    Other than that I agree with everything said by all three.

  5. Christian BeyerNo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 8th, 2008 at 9:49 pm

    Jason, you old hair splitter you. Yes the only specifically spoken command in this parable is to ‘come’ but the implied command is to take care of others – or else. I will send you a Samsung Between the Lines Reader.

    If Jesus is exaggerating the consequences (or the blessings) here than perhaps you will tell us what pecifically is “the cause of the effect of being seperated at the final judement”?

    As for your avocation -just take care which way the wind is blowing. ;)

  6. BuddyONo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 8th, 2008 at 9:56 pm

    It’s really not as fun when everyone is in agreement… at least Kathy made me spell check and repost…

    I was metely using the Matt 25Open Link in New Window peice as an itemization of the sorts of things that might classify a person a poor… no more than that was intended.

    I tend to go off topic and feel I never quite get the intent of the bloggers direction

    Funny, quite often I tend to not have any direction when I blog… rabbit trails are more than welcome.

    “Why me?” — Why not? Is your life that perfect pain, sickness worry free? Or do you just have other yokes to bear besides the yoke of poverty?

    So a minority consensus seems to think that merely writing a check to a foreign charity is the ‘easy way out’… What more could be done globally to provide relief besides checck writing? … squeezing the balloon of economy and commerce to influce those on the other side of the globe?

    I still think that taking care of local folks that, in a global perspective may not ‘qualify’ as poor, is just doing the bare minimum that Scripture prescribes. Bob, the homless guy with an electric wheelchair obviously has somewhere to go to plug it in and charge it, he was dressed fairly nicely and didn’t smell, he certianly appeared to be well fed and seemed a bit put off by the $5 that my son and I gave him… like it wasn’t as much he was used to getting. I”m not saying that we shouldn’t take care of him… his life is WAY tougher than mine… but is that enough to satisfy my responsibility in Christs eyes?

  7. Christian BeyerNo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 8th, 2008 at 10:07 pm

    Buddy -I agree with you but I still think we are talking about two different things. As disciples of Christ, as members of the church and part of our local and global community we have obligations to work for social justice and charity. But as you ask; where do we start? Where do we stop? How effective are our efforts? How do we determine who has the greatest need?

    Who can tell? But when a close proximity situation presents an opportunity for making a decision either to help or ignore someone- what do I do? I’m not talking about one of the numerous corner beggars or any of the solicitation for charitible contributions – practically speaking we all live under different constraints.

    I think this is more a matter of the heart over the head. At that moment, when confronted with an immediate demand upon our resources (including time) what we instictively do is a reflection of where we are with Christ. Our efforts need not be confined to the poor (as you said on another thread). In Matthew, Jesus does not seem to place any financial boundaries on who may be in need.

  8. Christian BeyerNo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 8th, 2008 at 10:24 pm

    Oh…

    What more could be done globally to provide relief besides checck writing?…squeezing the balloon of economy and commerce to influce those on the other side of the globe?

    Yep. Isn’t that what ONE.org is all about? Writing checks for charity (and I am not busting that at all) does nothing to cure the disease, it only addresses the symptoms. But… I think pain relief all by itself is still pretty noble.

    Imagine someone like Wilberforce devoting his time and energy to haveing food and clothing sent to the slaves in the Americas, rather than spending his life in front of Parliament in his effort to abolish the trade itself.

  9. tamNo Gravatar says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 12:00 am

    Buddy, sorry, I don’t know how to do that fancy little quote thing y’all do so well =)

    ““Why me?” — Why not? Is your life that perfect pain, sickness worry free? Or do you just have other yokes to bear besides the yoke of poverty?”

    I meant, in comparison to other countries, where we seem to pour a lot of our money into to helping the “poor”, why are some of us allowed to be born here and not there enduring that kind of poverty? I was not implying that I have it all together in any way shape or form, I don’t. So, yes, I would ask as well, Why not me? But truly, when i think of it looking at your questions above who is to say that I don’t have it as bad as some of them? I have an auto immune disease that causes me daily pain and has left us with medical bills we cannot pay. We are giving up our home in a matter of weeks, walking away from everything because we can’t make ends meet. By some standards you might call me poor. But, I am so engulfed by His love, comfort, care, peace that I don’t see it that way at all. I have never not had any of my “needs” met. I “need” nothing and “want” for plenty – that’s what makes me poor.

    I just re-read this and it’s a jumbled mess….sorry, good luck ;)

  10. JasonNo Gravatar says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 6:37 am

    “the implied command is to take care of others – or else. I will send you a Samsung Between the Lines Reader.”

    Interesting implied legalism, but, from time long past, I thought you were against rules for salvation?

    It’s a shame that those bothersome words get in in the way of what we want to say.

  11. JasonNo Gravatar says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 6:39 am

    “If Jesus is exaggerating the consequences (or the blessings) here than perhaps you will tell us what pecifically is “the cause of the effect of being seperated at the final judement”?”

    1. that would be the cross, C. Read just a couple of more chapters.

    2. What consequences are you talking about, C?

  12. Christian BeyerNo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 6:54 am

    Hey, Tam. Thanks.

    J, Remember- I don’t believe in the (un)popular concept of ‘hell’ (or even Heaven) but with that aside, I don’t think that in this parable Jesus is setting up some sort of new hurdle we all need to clear in order to to avoid hell. Instead he is using very strong language to demonstrate what it means to love God as well as love your neighbor which are two sides of the same coin. Something that he demonstrated on the cross. If there is any concrete doubt of the consequences of making the wrong choices then check out the life of Mr. Potter. Or Don Corleone. Or Brittany Spears. Or Ted Haggard. (And, unfortunately, most of my life). What happens later is speculation.

  13. KathyONo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 7:52 am

    Thanks Tam for sharing. I’m sure that it wasn’t easy to do. I think you have hit the nail on the head. “I “need” nothing and “want” for plenty – that’s what makes me poor” (I can’t do those fancy things either!) Isn’t that what it comes down to? Kind of like the concept of happiness. Strictly man-made concept. Happiness depends upon your circumstances. Chances are, not many “poor” people are happy. But, joy is what comes from the Lord and has no regard for your circumstances.

    What you wrote Tam, certainly, was no jumbled mess but some of the wisest words so far.

  14. Christian BeyerNo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 8:18 am

    Amen to that, Kathy.

    “Chances are, not many “poor” people are happy” From what I can see I think the chances are that most people on earth are not really ‘happy’, rich, poor or or in between. At least not most of the time.

    I agree that happiness is often man made, circumstantial and fleeting. And Joy is not the same thing as happiness – you can experience the joy of a relationship with God that has nothing to do with your emotional state at the time. But I wonder if a sustaining joy that comes with a stong faith and trust in God will lead towards a ‘happier’ life.

  15. JasonNo Gravatar says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 9:03 am

    Does that mean I peepee in the pool?

    I appreciate and totally agree with your last look at the verse, C. A great deal of empathy and compassion for those who are struggling and/or have less than they “need” (which is really fuzzy, and those of you who are here are already approaching that issue so well) is to be a characteristic of the Christian or a characteristic desired and sought by the Christian. I remember Piper saying that if you aren’t experiencing the fruits of the Spirit, take that to be either a gentle proding to a believer or a big, bright warning sign to a person who thinks that they are a believer, but they really aren’t.

    I admit that my curt language on matters of the loose use of words is driven by my view to the over use of the word “poor” by neo-liberation/SOME emergent (is there a difference?) persons. There are plenty of contexts in which the word refers to the person’s acknowledgement of their great lack of God and his glory in their life. In Kingdom of God=Social Justice circles the resolution of “poor” is stretched to mean things of this world (e.g. Matthew 5:3Open Link in New Windowb is us bringing the Kingdom by establishing some economic and/or social egalitarianism, not God bringing those who acknowledge their great paucity of righteousness into his presence, a form of godliness which denies the power of God).

    My defensiveness is a desire for clarity and to try to assure that a passage is not made to say something that is doesn’t.

    Has anyone read William Cowper?

  16. BuddyONo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 9:17 am

    Ah.. the quoting thing is cake.. just type <blockquote>quote something here</blockquote>

    Everything between the two ‘blockquote’ tags will be quoted. Just like <b>bold</b> and <i>italic</i>

  17. JasonNo Gravatar says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 9:17 am

    I can’t resist.

    “What happens later is speculation.”

    Jesus is speculating?

  18. BuddyONo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 9:38 am

    C, K and T all got it right… it’s the intention of your heart. I was talking about this with Kathy last night and admitted that I didn’t totally buy what I was writing about just skimming by… Like I said in the other post, I like to take a postion on something from a new and different perspective to see how we all work it out… maybe there’s something to learn.

    What you wrote Tam, certainly, was no jumbled mess but some of the wisest words so far.

    THE WISEST WORDS SO FAR!?!?!!? … (yeah, I guess your right) …

    Tam and Kathy, you have both come in and slammed this discussion back to earth… thanks… (although such compassionate and sensible comments really put a damper on the fun of self righteous pontificating ;) )

    We can theorize and postulate all we want, but the bottom line is that there’s real people, with real pain, and real need out there… We’re supposed to take care of each other.

    OK, so let’s follow that trail. Are we successful at taking care of each other? Are folks like Tam and Kathy (who are in remarkably similar situations) marginalized by the church in favor of more ‘traditional’ charity and outreach? Or are they, with thier specific yokes, invited to a greater calling in delivering compassion in the kingdom?

    [If this is getting too personal or uncomfortable, just tell me to shut up... but I think this is good stuff]

    J:

    view to the over use of the word “poor” by neo-liberation/SOME emergent (is there a difference?) persons.

    I didn’t follow you on this, could you explain again?

  19. JasonNo Gravatar says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 9:54 am

    Sure.

    Within liberation and neo-lib theology, broadly, and within, again, some emergent lines of thought the word “poor” is used throughout the bible to mean materially poor exclusively, quite in spite of the fact that many biblical contexts demand a different meaning.

    Sorry about the self righteous potificating. let’s just let the words mean whatever we want them to.

  20. BuddyONo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 10:06 am

    No, I was referring to myself with the self-righteous ponficiation remark…

    again, some emergent lines of thought the word “poor” is used throughout the bible to mean materially poor exclusively,

    I find that hard to imagine…

    I kept trying to keep this post and the one on wealth isolated on just the ‘material’ aspect, but as you read the comments it becomes clear that it’s near impossible to separate.

  21. JasonNo Gravatar says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 10:41 am

    It seems hard to imagine that that much bending of context could go on, but look at what the word-faith crowd does. Zowie, look at what Osteen does. I know he is an easy target, but people love it because it fits their me-first picture of the world.

    I have an unsupported theory that much of the liberation stuff and occasional overreactions of groups like Sojourners is resultant from those who are truly called by God vocationally to Social Justice issues see the selfishness and underreaction of much of the Western church and they overreact in response, trying to fulfill their calling. I also think that much of it is just communism with a facade of deism. The discussion is really coming around to a closer look at the efficacy of our resources and reasonable assessment of subjective scarcity.

  22. KathyONo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 11:04 am

    “Are folks like Tam and Kathy (who are in remarkably similar situations) marginalized by the church in favor of more ‘traditional’ charity and outreach? Or are they, with thier specific yokes, invited to a greater calling in delivering compassion in the kingdom?”

    No and yes. Hate to admit to that second one…

    Jason, as far as your second paragraph above, it seems to me like it is that typical pendulum problem. Someone sees a problem here and to counteract it, it goes waaaayyyyy over there. No middle ground it seems.

  23. KathyONo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 11:05 am

    Ok, still can’t get the italic thing down. Not my gift. Buddy…remember EI …:)

  24. Christian BeyerNo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 11:33 am

    Jason I think your last paragraph hits the mark in two ways.

    1.) I think that your assessment of the ‘liberation/liberal/emerging’ wing of the church is right on the money but (as you suggest) it cannot be applied to all folks of this persuasion. And I do not think your opinion here is unsupported at all. The evidence is out there. However, I think that there is tremendous value in what many of these people are saying.

    2.) I think the preceding remark explains your tendency to assume that the person with ‘liberal’ or ‘emerging’ points of view share similar motivations.(Just as I may make incorrect assumptions about someone with a ‘fundamentalist’ point of view, which limits my ability to see the value in what they are saying.)

    I see a problem in that certain outspoken elements of the church (conservative and liberal) will take as convenient allies political and social elements that have little true interest in serving God or his kingdom.

  25. JasonNo Gravatar says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 11:33 am

    “No middle ground it seems.”

    I totally agree, Kathy. Everyone, especially me, slides into thinking that EVERYONE should feel that their calling is the most important.

    The only way by which I am forced to think differently is to be interactive within a body, seeing how God brings the foot and the hand and the eye in highly unlikely vessels.

  26. JasonNo Gravatar says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 11:34 am

    “‘liberal’ or ‘emerging’ points of view share similar motivations”

    You’re right. That is an unfair generalization and would need more specifics.

  27. tamNo Gravatar says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 12:00 pm

    I think with affliction comes a responsibility to serve. When I was diagnosed I realized immediately that the Lord was taking me through a hard core crash course of compassion. I thought I had that one down. I most certainly did not. And I still struggle with it. But, it is my duty to take what I have experienced in life and share with others, in similar situations or not, what God has shown. It would be irresponsible of me not to. What would be the point of it all then?

    I was wondering too at what point does our opinion or assumption of another’s poverty or disgrace, need or misfortune, become judging? Can that line be easily crossed? What is our true motive behind the act?

    So Kathy, how are we in similar situations? I’d love to chat about that!

  28. Christian BeyerNo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 12:13 pm

    I was wondering too at what point does our opinion or assumption of another’s poverty or disgrace, need or misfortune, become judging? Can that line be easily crossed? What is our true motive behind the act?

    That says a lot. I remember when I always felt compelled to give money to street people or serve in soup kitchens or work with the underprivileged. Many good people do those things because it is on their hearts. I thought this was on my heart as well but became aware of my left handing firmly patting myself on the back. “Atta boy, Chris. The Lord sure must be proud of you.” (Well maybe not quite that blatantly but you get my point.)

    I think the goal would be to get to the point where our sense of service to others is almost (if not completely) unconscious. I also believe it is a wonderful thing if we can realize that in serving others it ourselves that is really being ministered to, not this person that I may see as being somehow ‘less’ or ‘needier’ than I am.

  29. JasonNo Gravatar says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 12:29 pm

    “I think the goal would be to get to the point where our sense of service to others is almost (if not completely) unconscious.”

    Have you ever read Frank Laubach, Chris?

  30. Christian BeyerNo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 1:31 pm

    I’ve heard of him. He was an influential missionary back in the early part of the last century, but other than that, no. What do you recommend and why?

  31. JasonNo Gravatar says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 1:42 pm

    One of my professors gave us copies from a book of his called “Letters by a Modern Mystic”.

    His journal writings are filled with the same wonderful instinct you expressed as the ideal desire, that is, at one with the Spirit, without even considering this or that, a simultaneous thought and action, like Isaiah 30:21Open Link in New Window. It, generally, is great devotional stuff, especially because he existed in challenging missionary circumstances, real rubber meets the road stuff.

    The similarity of the phrase of yours which I quoted to his own writings is uncanny.

  32. tamNo Gravatar says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 3:50 pm

    Do you really think it’s possible to not let our right hand know what our left hand is doing?

    And on something else…I was just listening to Ravi Zaccharias (sp?) and he was talking about serving. He mentioned something very interesting that I had pondered before and that is our Youths “Missionary” trips. They go on one and say they did YWAM, they go on another and say they’re involved with Youth For Christ. But are they being trained up into “servants” or “missionaries”? Most I believe see it as simply an experience. Which isn’t bad and certainly not all view it that way. But the majority I know really do. Some see it as a “Look what can I do” or “Look what I did” mentality. I see a danger in this. A trend that isn’t raising up servants without having to get an applause.

  33. Christian BeyerNo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 4:06 pm

    It’s tough. I don’t know. Maybe I am doing it already but I’m not aware of it. Yeah, that’s right. Why just yesterday this lady asked me if I could help her with her-DO’H!

    Thanks a lot, Tam. :)

  34. KathyONo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 4:20 pm

    I was wondering too at what point does our opinion or assumption of another’s poverty or disgrace, need or misfortune, become judging? Can that line be easily crossed? I believe that line to be crossed all the time. Everytime we see someone based on their circumstances. How do we stop doing this? I have no clue because I have to admit, that I do it more often than not.

    I’m not sure that it is possible to not let our right hand know what our left hand is doing. I think it is truly a gift in itself to be able to serve others without thinking of ourselves in some way. Service really needs to be, in my opinion, a knee jerk reaction when seeing a concern or need of another.

    Tam, I too have an autoimmune disease. I was diagnosed 11 years ago, this month, with Multiple Sclerosis. Actually, I should say that Buddy and I, and the kids too, have all been diagnosed. It just affects them in different ways than it does me. I understand the medical bills that seem to never go away. I too believe that we do have a special responsibility in that. Part of one of my favorite verses speaks to that, I think…
    “Three times I begged the Lord to make this suffering go away. But, He replied, My kindness is all that you need. My power is strongest when you are weak. So if Christ keeps giving me his power, I will gladly brag about how weak I am”

    Our thoughts and prayers are with you guys!

  35. KathyONo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 4:22 pm

    Hey! Did everyone see?? I did the italics thing! Woohoo!

    By the way, Buddy, “THE WISEST WORDS SO FAR!?!?!!?” Are you questioning our wisdom????:)

  36. tamNo Gravatar says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 8:20 pm

    Kathy, I’m sorry. I understand how it effects everyone not just you. I was diagnosed with Lupus 3 years ago. I think it has done our family good though. Sounds strange but I am grateful in my circumstance but not always for it.

    Have you been able to manage it well these past 11 years? Or is that too personal of a question here…I mean, this is only our 2nd date. Wha?! :)

    It’s been fun having this conversation here…especially since Buddy said this…and I DON’T “quote”…

    “THE WISEST WORDS SO FAR!?!?!!? … (yeah, I guess your right) …”

    Ahhh – feels good!

  37. tamNo Gravatar says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 8:35 pm

    I’ve decided to do some editing…

    “THE WISEST WORDS SO FAR!!!! … (yeah, you’re right) …”

  38. KathyONo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 8:50 pm

    Our second date, yuck,yuck. Uh oh, sounds like someone with my sense of humor! Speaking of humor, I do have to say that we have definitely developed a somewhat warped one as a way of dealing with it. For instance, my kids will tell you that one of the good things about my having MS is that I can hide my own Easter basket (memory is an issue–keeps the marriage new!)! Or, Buddy will tell you that I drive fast because I can’t feel my feet! Oh, we’ve got a thousand of ‘em! Anyway, it’s been a blessing that we no longer take anything for granted and I think that will be the best legacy to leave my kids. As far as managing it, I can’t complain. I mean I do, but… :)

    How about you? I know relatively little about Lupus other than pain is a big issue. How are you managing? I guess I can ask now that we are on our 3rd date! :)

    How about you?

  39. KathyONo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 8:52 pm

    Sorry scratch the second ‘How about you’. No pressure!

  40. Christian BeyerNo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 9:35 pm

    Hey, mind if I cut in?

    I have been waiting for you guys to ‘find’ each other for some time now. It’s almost uncanny, Tam reminded me of Kathy from the first time I ‘met’ her (similar twisted sense of humor) – and at the time I didn’t even know about the Lupus. And Brent as an overly sensitive praise/worship leader/ musician/church wonk like Buddy (only much nicer)? You guys are near the same age and you both have rug rats and (I think) you both live in older homes that are bathroom challenged (well, OK, that was in the past for the Olivers) You know how I feel about coincidences. I’m gettin’ all verklempt.

    Kathy, if Buddy says you drive fast (and by golly you do!) because you can’t feel your feet, what’s his excuse? Can’t feel his brain, or what?

    Anyway, discuss, discuss….don’t worry about us. Pretend we’re not here.

  41. BuddyONo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 9:46 pm

    Hey, while we’re wandering around in the brush anyway…

    What’s a guy got to do to get some blogroll links..?

  42. Christian BeyerNo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 9th, 2008 at 9:51 pm

    Well, Rev22 is on my blogroll. Perhaps you need to grovel even more, if that is possible.

  43. tamNo Gravatar says:

    Added on January 10th, 2008 at 12:36 am

    Oh my goodness Buddy! You’re right! I am the worst at updating my blogroll! I would love to have you at my place ;)

    I’m off…

  44. tamNo Gravatar says:

    Added on January 10th, 2008 at 12:50 am

    Kathy, yes! A sense of humor is my lifeline! I tend to take things very lightly. I guess I’ve always had the tendency to do that but sense my diagnosis I’ve mastered it even more! It’s a stress reliever. I don’t mask things with humor I just laugh at things…hard to explain – I’m probably not right in the head somewhere. (Watch it C!) Lupus is a complex disease. Mine effects mostly my joints. Especially my hands and knees. It has also effected the lining around my lungs and from my last blood work might be messing with my liver now too. And of course my immune system is always low and when I’m stressed takes an even bigger hit (which is why I try to find humor in everything, being married to Brent helps with that) I don’t deal with fatigue for which I am extremely grateful! And blah, blah, blah , blah, blah. Boooorrriiinnngggg……It’s just not my identity…it doesn’t own me. Praise God!

    I think we have officially hi-jacked your husbands post :D

  45. BuddyONo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 10th, 2008 at 2:10 pm

    I think we have officially hi-jacked your husbands post

    No problem, the original topic was starting to fizzle anyway. I started a new post so we wouldn’t bother you over here. :)

    Anyway, it’s been a blessing that we no longer take anything for granted and I think that will be the best legacy to leave my kids. As far as managing it, I can’t complain. I mean I do, but…

    She doesn’t complain… about the MS anyway… ;)

    It’s easy for me to say, but it has been a blessing in many ways. For me (us?) [in addition to what Kathy already mentioned] it has made my relationship with God more … well… real. Not as much phoney smiley mountain top stuff and more ‘rubber meets the road’ stuff. I’ve been pissed at Him and clung to Him… sometimes simultaneously….

  46. KathyONo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 10th, 2008 at 4:08 pm

    So, Tam, is there medicine that helps in slowing down the disease or with control of the symptoms? I know that medication is a tough thing, sometimes what is designed to helps creates more problems. Are you into any of the other things such as chiropractic or the needles? Sorry I am having a brain fart day today. Sometimes the old grey matter just doesn’t fire like it should!

    I think that I read somewhere along the lines, that you have children? How are they dealing with mom not feeling well?

    I do understand the laughing at things. Sometimes it is either that or crying. I have also found that it tends to put people more at ease and can open up conversations.

    Sorry for the 20 questions. It is nice being able to talk with someone who really does understand what it is like having a chronic disease!

  47. BuddyONo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 12th, 2008 at 10:50 pm

    Tam, where’d you go? I was enjoying lurking in this thread. It’s insightful for me as a support person to hear this stuff.

  48. tamNo Gravatar says:

    Added on January 12th, 2008 at 11:13 pm

    Hey! I’m here…Kathy, the meds thing sucks, doesn’t it? It’s like “Take this for that, and this for the other and experience a myriad of side effects that will make you feel worse. But worry not, we’ll give you meds for those pesky side effects too! And thanks for all your $$$!”

    My approach is healthy eating and anything that reduces stress. Fortunately I’m not a high strung person nor are the kids and Brent. We’re just content and happy to be here. Yes, I have a soon to be 14 yr old girl and an 11 yr old son. They are stinkin awesome! We haven’t made a big deal about the disease – it’s not what defines me or us…so that’s good.

    What about you? How do you manage it? How has it changed you, personally, the most? And what about your children…what are their outlooks on it?

    It is really good to have “met” you and Buddy. I’ve always lurked here and gleaned much from y’all…so thanks for letting me in!

  49. BuddyONo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 15th, 2008 at 9:56 am

    And thanks for all your $$$!”

    You can say that again… $1800 per month for Rebif… Thank God for insurance.

    I’ve always lurked here and gleaned much from y’all…so thanks for letting me in!

    Glad you decided to come out of the ’shadows’… hope I can keep it interesting enough so eveyone stays around.

    Kathy was still wiped out today, not sure if she’ll be up to bloggin or not. She’ll be back though.

  50. KathyONo Gravatar (blog author) says:

    Added on January 17th, 2008 at 1:00 pm

    Howdy Tam! I wasn’t feeling so well so I took some time off. I too do the healthy eating and exercise route and it has made a huge difference. I also take lots of supplements to help as well. The biggest plus I’ve experienced has been with chiropractic medicine. I go regularly. I truly believe that the body is an amazing thing and if we do things to help it run at its best than it will also fight whatever it has to, better. I have also heard really good things about accupuncture which would be fine if it weren’t for all of the needles :) !

    Has it changed my personality? YES. For the good and the bad. I have come to know that I am much more resilient than I would have thought 12 years ago. The blessing has truly been in no longer taking things for granted. When you can’t walk, walking across a parking lot is an amazing gift! (funny, no one likes to go shopping with me now!) It has truly molded my faith as well. I’m in kind of a holding pattern now, well, actually it’s been like that for several years. Long story somewhat short…Several years ago, I started feeling “normal”. When I went to my neuro for my regular check up, he told me that he couldn’t find any sign of the disease. He also said that he, being a medical doctor, could only attribute it to prayer. We had an amazing prayer circle, and still do. Then about 2 years later (don’t do well with remembering times), after a falling out with our church, the disease came back. What do you do with that? I was pissed off because here I was the walking miracle and He blew it. Not just for me but for those around me that were touched. Although I never felt that it was about me. I also said that my healing had already taken place, on the inside, where it was vital. Based on my background, I felt and sometimes still do that God was punishing me for something. People would come to me and ask why? And I no longer had the answers. So much for the short part of this story! Anyway, I am in a position now that I need to decide where I am going from here. Do I trust Him in spite of my circumstances or continue to give Him the cold shoulder? I, at one point, questioned His existence and if He did exist, did I want to acknowledge Him? Either way I know that I can no longer go back to those days where my faith used to be because even though it was strong it would still be going backwards. Sara Groves has this amazing song entitled “Painting Pictures of Egypt”. Here’s some of the lyrics that can explain it better…

    I’ve been painting pictures of Egypt,
    Leaving out what it lacks
    The future feels so hard,
    And I wanna go back!
    But the places that used to fit me,
    Cannot hold the things I’ve learned
    Those roads were closed off to me
    While my back was turned!

    The past is so tangible
    I know it by heart
    Familiar things are never easy
    To discard
    I was dying for some freedom
    But now I hesitate to go
    I am caught between the Promise
    And the things I know

    So, there you have it…

    Phew, I need to go lay down! Sorry you asked???

  51. JasonNo Gravatar says:

    Added on January 17th, 2008 at 1:57 pm

    that is one of my absolutely favorite songs, and everytime I hear it, EVERYTIME, it is like a slap across the face.

    Don’t say “needles” around Tam.

    Thanks for sharing with all of us, Kathy.

  52. tamNo Gravatar says:

    Added on January 20th, 2008 at 12:31 am

    Hey Kathy! I remember during my diagnoses wondering if I was being punished. Had I done something wrong? Well, yes, I’m sure I did. Fortunately my father in law, who is a Pastor and the godliest man I know, was there when I had my break down. He reminded me that none of us deserve mercy and grace. We are sinful beings that live in a fallen world. But that is not why I had been inflicted with this disease. It is so God can get the glory through me. It is so His power can be seen in me. I remember him saying God saw me fit for this task to reach others for Him. I considered it an honor, in a weird sort of way, after he said that. It just spoke a lot to me. I like me better today because of this disease. I have learned a whole bunch…and I know I’m not done yet…inProgress ;)

    Hope you’re feeling well today. And strong. And blessed. And joyful. I have been praying for you each time you come to my mind…

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