I agree with that there is a distinction between spiritual wealth and financial wealth. Certianly they are mutually independent. I guess I wasn’t really clear myself on what my point in writing this was… I guess in reading your comments, it’s not so much about the difference between spiritual and financial wealth… it’s more about the irrelevance of financial wealth. Irrelevance one way or the other. I mean getting off the back of those ‘with’ and not being concerned about making those ‘without’ into those ‘with’… does that make any sense??

Of course we are told to help make sure that the ‘needs’ of the poor are met… does that mean we need to make sure the underprivleged in our communities have 2.5 TVs and basic cable? Does it mean that we condemn or look down upon (or impose guilt upon) those that drive a BMW or have a 70″ surround theater or 10,000 sqft home? Does any of it really matter to God or does it just matter to us?

Jesus tells us in Matthew 6 that He will take care of us. I’m not saying we shouldn’t take care of the poor, Scripture clearly mandates that… It’s just got me thinking.

Buddy and I have argued about this before

Not sure what your remembering here… I’m the one who’s been questioning the whole idea of the pastorate as a profession in the first place… I’m really not clear that Scripture calls for a ‘pastor’ in the church at all, much less someone who gets paid for it… I question whether a ‘Pastor’ should even get $25,000 a year… I have a friend who is the pastor of a church plant, he has (in my estimation) been quite successful. He started in his living room, but now rents the gym at the local elementary school and has like 75 members just a few short years later. The problem is now that he is struggling… he has a mortgage and a family to support. A 75 member congregation just isn’t enough to support the salary he needs to survive… he is looking at having to fold if he can’t get his membership (ant thus giving) up… This just seems wrong somehow…

It seems we are almost more obsessed in faith circles with wealth (and the lack of) than we are with sexual sin… maybe we’re still missing the point.

C’mon? I don’t think so. Take a look around - it seems that many, many Christians think that sexual immorality is the single greatest threat to the church. Like the Victorians, there tends to be more going on behind closed doors than most would like to admit. Still can’t figure this one out. Anyway…

I think it is a good thing for the church to be ‘obsessed’ with some aspects of wealth; how people come by it and what people do with it. Take Potter for example; he certainly had a talent for making wealth and probably didn’t even break any laws. But he surely was not serving the Kingdom, and I’ll bet his family owned a pew in the local church. Can’t be a bank president in a small town in the 1940’s and not be a church goer.

We live in a free society and there should be no legal restraints placed upon how much a person may earn and what they do with their money (obviously they shouldn’t be allowed to buy vodka for middle schoolers, but you get my point). Nor should there be too many laws about what people wear, what books they read, what movies they want to watch or what goes on in their bedrooms. Government is a necessary evil but an evil none the less and it has shown a propensity for the ‘benevolent’ assumption of citizens rights. But….

That doesn’t mean the church shoiuldn’t have a say in this. And they certainly have been much more vocal about some of these other things I’ve mentioned than they have about money. The church does not seem to be too “obsesesed’ with wealth (except for tithing). Which is interesting because Jesus speaks much more about wealtj than those other issues of morality. In fact the entire Bible has a lot to say about a moral marketplace.

Could it be that there are children dying from disease because the more affluent civilizations are wasting medical resources? Is there a lack of clean water in some areas because we might be wasting ‘our’ abundant water? (Don’t laugh - in Baja Mexico the Colorado river has been reduced to a trickle because of the folly of buiding cities, farms and golf courses in the Great American desert. The US Gov’t has helped Mexico build a desalinization plant in Baja because the fresh water has just about dried up. No wonder they want in.)

Tam, that completely relates… Fords point is that the wealth doesn’t make any difference one way or the other, it’s irrelevant to his happiness.

Chris,
Do you really think that the church should be in the business of imposing morality on a society? Isn’t church supposed to be for worshiping God and building disciples? Whos morality would you suggest that they adopt, James Dobson, the Pope, Joel Osteen, Brian McClaren? I think they each would have a slightly different spin on many different issues.

It’s the wrong approach. The kind of moral responsibility you are talking about is the fruit that flows from ‘The Message’. It shouldn’t be imposed nor legislated. We spend too much time criticizing and condemning people, corporations, etc for not having ‘the fruit’. Is that fair? Isn’t that putting the cart before the horse? Our focus should be spreading the seed from which the fruit will naturally grow….

“…is there any thing you wish you had, something you might be missing?” He thought for several seconds and replied, “Peace”.

Sure. “Money can’t buy me love”. I think with folks like Ford or the Beatles or Donald Trump it isn’t just the crazy money that they have that may hinder their quest for peace but their fame and power. Of course their success with their art or in their quest for financial reward may very well be due to their hunger for some type of peace. Would some of those famously tragic artists and financial barons have been as wealthy or as critically acclaimed if they were born with this peace upon them? I don’t know.

Whose morality would you suggest that they adopt…?

Jesus’ morality, as he sums it up; “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.” That’s it - no more theology necessary. How can this be misconstrued? There may be differences in how we think this rule should be applied but doesn’t it often boil down to how committed we are to following Jesus? (He wasn’t the first nor the only person to say this, btw: http://www.teachingvalues.com/goldenrule.html . Not too many can say that they are ignorant of this concept.)

You must have missed what I said in my first comment that there should never be an attempt to legislate morality(although all laws have a moral basis) otherwise we could conceivabley be arrested in the future for harboring society’s undesirable or ’substandard’ people, like musicians. But church members (not just preachers) have an obligation to read and discuss scriptures and assist each other in its practical application. I think this is one of the those legitimate activities of the church that many use as an excuse to avoid personal participation. Of course if we keep Matthew 7:12 in the forefront of our activities then I think fewer would have a problem with this.

“then they would need to determine whether or not to even have a family and kids and cars…”

I wonder if this was what Paul was referring to 1 Corinthians 7 ? I think this it’s best to leave this up to the minister and ministry in question; the local congregation. There’s a lot to be said for both sides of Paul’s argument and he does seem to suggest as much himself. However, I don’t think much dust would accumulate on my sandels in a church where the pastor is being chaffeur driven or has a prediliction for $1000 suits. As Brent said, it would seem that they would have an obligation to “not accept what would not be appropriate.” And I would have an obligation to not offer it as well.

Well, I think that commercialism, materialism and greed are symptoms of the same thing that fuels sexual immorality - we have a hard time accepting the fact that we are not God, that the world doesn’t revolve around us. The relatively recent attention spent on the blogosphere concerning the church’s place in working towards social justice aside, I still don’t think that this (attention to the issues of wealth and poverty) is a very wide spread concern in the Evangelical church.

That being said I realized something yesterday; although it is very difficult for me to love anyone unconditionally I am of the mindset that I know that I should do so. However I tend to see my failure in this regards primarily as it pertains to the ‘poor’. I rarely find myself confessing to a lack of love for the rich - in my mind they apparently don’t deserve it. This is something that I have to work on. Mr. Potter, (as Buddy put so well) needs to be loved by ME.

Doesn’t mean I should excuse his actions, but I should at least try to understand where he is coming from and how he got there. Sort of like that big troll in “The Bridge to Tarabithia”. (Excellent recommendation, by the way, guys. Thanks for lending us the movie, BuddyO and KathySo.)

Yes I did cry and I’m not ashamed to admit it. I’m sure Buddy did as well. The young man reminded me of Ian, his friend reminded me of Teddy and sadly the father reminded me of myself.

Yep,yep,yep on Potter, I can see that now.

The issues of wealth, poverty, greed, etc., etc should be HUMAN concerns and therefore church concerns.

In addition to George’s visits and Mary’s pot roast the man in the pulpit hopefully is addressing these issues in a not so general fashion. Of course, maybe they were being addressed in those days. More often I think the Amreican church’s stance on these issues usually dovetails with that of the legal code. Old Man Potter (like many others) wasn’t really doing anything illegal, so how could it be wrong?

Darn it. You replied before I could set up the nifty link to an excellent article someone wrote about this exact thing.

I’m assuming that “the Church” with the capitol C means the body of believers with the lower case c being the institution. With that said, there should be no difference because the body should act according to the scriptures.

Yes, again, the church is made up of humans with all of their flaws and shortcomings so yes it is far from perfect. Does that mean they stop working towards it? Should we as followers stop working on our flaws? Of course not. And, here’s one for you, maybe the “rich” are helping in some way to continue this stereotype. And besides, how do we really know when someone is rich or not, within our own churches? Is it based on clothes or cars or is it on the application form? Is it discussed in accountability groups? I think when we no longer think of people as people and only categories then maybe we should rethink OUR thinking…

Sorry I have to disagree with you about the movie. I like my happy endings…

Sorry, must have misunderstood…

Yeah, and though I may at times sound shizophrenic (what a catch-all phrase that has become) I am a FIRM believer in capitalism. I deplore the idea of socialism because basically, except when it comes to building big dams, highways, bombers and tanks, the goverment is pretty inefficient. (Come to think of it I don’t know how efficient they are when it comes to building dams, hihgways etc.) The last 100 years has born this out.

But if capitalist don’t regulate themeselves (and each other through business associations) then eventually they will overstep their bounds and the backlash will come in the form of unions, additional government oversite and punitive judgements (or in one case, a civil war). As Kathy said;” And, here’s one for you, maybe the “rich” are helping in some way to continue this stereotype.” As an employer (thank God I no longer am) I am accustomed to a certain level of grumbling among the staff concerning management. If it developments to a significantly higher level it would be wise to take a look at how my management team is doing their job, rather than assume the resentment is just a matter of ’sour grapes’. I think that Christian business men and women should be exemplerary employers, vendors and customers and strive to be beyond reproach. Unfortunately they do not appear to behave too much differently then secular business people (if you assume that the majority of Americans are still ‘Christian’)

Guess I can’t hang with the big dogs…I’m too sensitive for the sarcasm that abounds…

OK, it’s gone now. Whew, that was close! BTW, I guess you can see that I have a lot of time on my hands today - none of my students posted to class. What’s up with you Olivers? Are you both off today?

Kathy, you? Sensitive? Don’t be absurd. Of course if I can find this song….let’s see, maybe it’s under this- Here it is!

A-hem…ah one, and a two, and a three…

They call him Flipper, Flipper, faster than lightning,
No-one you see, is smarter than he,
And we know Flipper, lives in a world full of wonder,
Flying there-under, under the sea!
Everyone loves the king of the sea,
Ever so kind and gentle is he,
Tricks he will do when children appear,
And how they laugh when he’s near!
They call him Flipper, Flipper, faster than lightning,
No-one you see, is smarter than he,
And we know Flipper, lives in a world full of wonder,
Flying there-under, under the sea!

Ahhh Chris. It’s taken me this long to get myself together after that lovely song. Thank you. My avatar was going to be a dolphin but I’m not sure I’d be able to type through the tears…

I remember going out to Chicago with Buddy to work on his sound equipment at a church there. What struck me the most was the two thrones (no kidding) and gold no less, in the center of the stage. Their (the pastor and his wife)lifestyle was one of extravagance. Now, it was Chicago and it’s true that salaries are different in different parts of the country. But, I guess for me, when you start working to support your lifestyle and not your “flock” maybe it’s time to rethink the calling. That can also be said though for those of us in the “non-professional pastoring” arena.

I’ve read the same thing J mentioned concerning the disparity of wealth and power that existed between Rome and the eastern church. Of course, it could be said that Rome was the undoing of church, the emphasis shifting from the strength found in weakness and submission to God and towards a more wordly model of wealth and power. And of course,the Roman Catholics wrote the book on how to place Christian doctrine ahead of what we call inclusion.

BTW here’s a picture of that church in Chicago Kathy was talking about. It’s still under construction in the photo; before the Golden Thrones were installed. Behind the stage was a sliding wall that is open in this pic, which revealed a backdrop of a manmade lake with live swans and a gilded gazebo in the center.

I understood what you were saying, Buddy. I was commenting on something Jason had said - I just wanted to clarify that there seems to be much more to this getting rich thing than talent. It can be just pure hard work and dedication. It can be luck. It can be through cheating. Recently, in the entertainment industry, a lot of rewards seem to come from staying in the public eye just by being ‘naughty’.

I think it’s interesting that most of the great men and women of industry rarely set out to make money. They were usually driven to just produce the best (fill in the blank) out there.

And then there are all those great talents who died paupers, only to be discovered after death.

No real pattern.

Good advice. Let’s just make sure that we apply this to everyone else as well, right?

Understood, Buddy. But J, how can that be acontextual? It’s part of the scripture Buddy cited.

OK, I’ll accept that. It was acontextual.

Welcome to both margaret and BillG. I was wondering when you’d come around Bill…

Margaret…. ummm… sure, let me think on that….

Bill. That’s exactly why I think a flat tax on earned income with no exemptions is the fairest possible system. Let me ask a question however… why is it that so many folks insist on comparing percentages when talking about taxes? Even your example of Warren Buffet vs the secretary, I don’t know the exact figures, but I would bet that even though he might pay a smaller percentage, the actual dollars he pays is an order of magnitude larger than the secretary’s entire annual earnings.

You said: i>”Why shouldn’t the top 1% pay more taxes? They get more services for it.”

You can’t be serious… the people who receive the most services are the bottom 33% in the US (as reported by the IRS) that pay absolutely no tax.

I agree with you on all of your ‘resents’ 100%. This current economic situation is the result of pure, immoral, cutthroat greed. The greed of the CEOs, bankers AND the politicians that sell their sole to line their pockets (read some articles about the relationship between the CBC and Fannie Mae, it’s enough to make your stomach turn)

I have no problem paying a FAIR tax. I just don’t like being subjected mandatory charity. I consider myself a very generous, compassionate person, let me keep more of my money and I’ll be able to be even more giving, I don’t need to be legally compelled to so.

How about 15% across the board to everyone who earns wages? No exemptions or loopholes. That sounds fair. It certainly would lower the government overhead, maybe even eliminate the IRS completely. That would save hundreds of millions alone.

You said: “one of its most important jobs is regulation of things so that the powerful do not take unfair advantage of the less strong.”

I don’t necessarily disagree, but as a curiosity, where to you see that spelled out in the Constitution?

BTW: How can Obama promise to give tax cuts to 90% of all Americans when 33% already pay 0 taxes? Does he mean they’ll get a percentage cut too? Let me see, a 10% cut of $0.00 equals…. $0.00… sounds a bit deceiving.

The bailouts (which I am adamantly opposed to) aren’t really services… They are loans from the government at a ridiculous 11% interest rate and the Government stands to make a nice profit on like they did when they bailed out Mexico.

A level playing field… how is one portion of the population carrying a huge burden and the majority carrying almost (or exactly) nothing a ‘level playing field’? You are absolutely right, money talks… this entire county and especially is elected officials are consumed with greed.

Good point re the constitution. I agree.

I would point out that the founding fathers put the Congress in Article 1 because they considered it the first among equals.

Boy if that were only true… Name me one member of Congress who isn’t in that elite top %5 ‘wealthy’. They are far from equals or representatives of the people. God forbid a farmer, or soccer mom, or truck driver run for Congress. The media and politicians will(are) eat(ing) them alive. Obama boasted the other week that he spends three times the annual budget ($12M) of Wasilla Alaska EACH MONTH on his campaign ($36M)… how’s that for a level playing field. The waste of money s enough to make you sick.

You are absolutely right. We need to return more power, authority and money back to the states. The Federal Government has far exceeded it’s bounds and the current administration hasn’t helped any toward a contraction. We need to delegate responsibility back to the state, county, local governments and particularly to the individual.

Isn’t that what the tithe is/was?

Certainly isn’t now. I’m not sure (care) what other folks make it. I won’t be sent to prison or lose my house if I skip a tithe one month. However, if I refuse to to contribute to a broken welfare system or have my money support planned parenthood or bail out a corrupt billion dollar insurance company…

According to Wikipedia (granted, not necessarily an authority but easy to search):

A tithe (from Old English teogoþa “tenth”) is a one-tenth part of something, paid as a (usually) voluntary contribution or as a tax or levy, usually to support a Christian religious organization. Today, tithes (or tithing) are normally voluntary and paid in cash, cheques, or stocks, whereas historically tithes could be paid in kind, such as agricultural products.

Yeah, Church and Religion has screwed up quite a lot of things…

Certainly we have to pay tax, but as you say it needs to be a fair tax (which is not what we currently have).

Curious… with the exception of Washington DC, why do you say we don’t have representation?

Oops. Yeah, I read that wrong. Certainly the American people are largely to blame. Two main reasons:
- Entitlement mentality, coupled with a sincere desire to see that people are taken care of… “What about the children”

- No fiscal sense of reality. The same problem that caused the Wall Street / Mortgage troubles right now. Just spending without really having any idea what anything costs or how you intend to pay for it. It’s difficult for most of us to wrap our brains around 1 trillion dollars… “is that more or less than bazillion? How long do I have to work at my Wall Mart greeter job to make a trillion dollars? Probably at least 80 years or something.”

Re administration: tell me about it. We vote in a ‘conservative’ and end up with this HUGE government with a bunch of new multi-billion dollar agencies… Maybe we would have been better with Gore…? AAhhhahhhha hahhhahh [big breath] bwaaahahhhaaaaaa [snort] hhahhhahhh….

Who can afford cake these days?

Especially if you’re a beer snob like me…. If a restaurant only has Bud and Coors Light, I order water.